part - 2 | november1963

T h e t e s t i m o n i e s

p a r t 2

Warren Caster vol. VII, p. 387

Mr. BALL - "Did you ever bring any guns into the School Book Depository Building?"

Mr. CASTER - "Yes; I did."

Mr. BALL - "When?"

Mr. CASTER - "I believe it was on Wednesday, November 20, during the noon hour."

Mr. BALL - "Whose guns were they?"

Mr. CASTER - "They were my guns."

Mr. BALL - "And what kind of guns were they?"

Mr. CASTER - "One gun was a Remington, single-shot, .22 rifle, and the other was a .30-06 sporterized Mauser."

Mr. BALL - "Who owned them?"

Mr. CASTER - "I had just purchased them during the noon hour that day."

Mr. BALL - "Well, tell us about it---what were the circumstances of the purchase?"

Mr. CASTER - "Well, I left the Depository during the noon hour and had lunch and, while out for the lunch hour, I stopped by Sanger-Harris sporting goods department to look for a rifle for my son's birthday---I beg your pardon, Christmas present--son's Christmas present, and while I was there I purchased the single-shot .22--single shot--and at the same time was looking at some deer rifles. I had, oh, for several years been thinking about buying a deer rifle and they happened to have one that I liked and I purchased the .30-06 while I was there."

Mr. BALL - "And did they box them up?"

Mr. CASTER - "They were in cartons; yes."

Mr. BALL - "And then you went back to work, I guess?"

Mr. CASTER - "Yes; I picked both rifles up in cartons just like they were, this was during the noon hour, and as I entered the Texas School Book Depository Building on my way up to the buying office, I stopped by Mr. Truly's office, and while I was there we examined the two rifles that I had purchased."

Mr. BALL - "Did you take them out of the carton?"

Mr. CASTER - "Yes; I did."

Mr. BALL - "Who was there besides you and Mr. Truly?"

Mr. CASTER - "Well, I'm not really sure who was there. I think you were there, Bill, and Mr. Shelley was there---and Mr. Roy Truly. The only people that I know about, in any event, were there; there were workers there at the time, but I'm not quite sure how many. I couldn't even tell you their names. I don't know the Texas School Book Depository workers there in the shipping department."

Mr. BALL - "In that office, though, Truly's office, how many were there?"

Mr. CASTER - "We weren't in Mr. Truly's immediate office, we were just there over the counter."

Mr. BALL - "In the warehouse?"

Mr. CASTER - "We were there in the hall--just right there over the counter in front of the warehouse; that's right."

Mr. BALL - "And did you take the guns out of the carton?"

Mr. CASTER - "Yes; I did. They were removed from the carton."

Mr. BALL - "Did you handle them?"

Mr. CASTER - "Yes; I did."

Mr. BALL - "Did anybody else handle the guns?"

Mr. CASTER - "Mr. Truly handled them and I'm not sure whether Mr. Shelley had the guns in his hands or not; I'm not positive."

Mr. BALL - "How long a time were you there with the guns, and by time, just estimate it."

Mr. CASTER - "Well, it couldn't have been more than to [sic.two] minutes."

Mr. BALL - "What did you do with the guns after that?"

Mr. CASTER - "I put them back in the carton and carried them up to my office."

Mr. BALL - "And what did you do with them after that?"

Mr. CASTER - "I left at the end of the working day, oh, around 4 o'clock and took the guns in the cartons and carried them and put them in my car and carried them home."

Mr. BALL - "Did you ever have them back in the Texas School Book Depository Building thereafter?"

Mr. CASTER - "They have never been back to the Texas School Book Depository Building since then."

Mr. BALL - "Where were those guns on November 22, 1963?"

Mr. CASTER - "The guns were in my home, 3338 Merrell Road."

Mr. BALL - "I think that's all."

Two days before the assassination, Caster brings a .22 and a 30.06 to work, says in his testimony that he took them both home with him that afternoon, yet two days later Arnold Rowland sees a man with a 30.06 conversion standing in the SW window of the 6th floor, a mere 15 minutes before the shots are fired at the motorcade - yet no one seems to find the coincidence even the slightest bit remarkable.

The above statements are just an excerpt from the full Warren Caster testimony, but the question they didn't ask him was "Did anyone see you take the rifles back to your car?" In my personal opinion, Mr. Caster is not off the hook.

Jack Dougherty vol. VI, p. 381

[ some had said that Dougherty was a bit crazy ... or perhaps just slow ]

Mr. BALL - "Did you have any active service?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Well, no--I volunteered for active service, but they said you couldn't very well volunteer--you have to be drafted, so they said, they told me at the time."

Mr. BALL - "Did you ever leave the United States during the War?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Oh, yes."

Mr. BALL - "Where did you go?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind."

Mr. BALL - "Then where did you go from there in the service?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Well, I stayed there until I got discharged."

Mr. BALL - "You didn't ever go outside the country to Europe?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Oh, no."

Mr. BALL - "Or to the South Seas?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "No."

. . .

[ regarding Oswald's arrival at work on the morning of November 22 ]

Mr. BALL - “Did he come in with anybody?”

Mr. DOUGHERTY - “No.”

Mr. BALL - “He was alone?”

Mr. DOUGHERTY - “Yes; he was alone.”

Mr. BALL - “Do you recall him having anything in his hand?”

Mr. DOUGHERTY - “Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.”

Mr. BALL - “Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?”

Mr. DOUGHERTY - “Well, I believe I can---yes, sir---I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.”

Mr. BALL - “In other words, your memory is definite on that is it?”

Mr. DOUGHERTY - “Yes, sir.”

Mr. BALL - “In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?”

Mr. DOUGHERTY - “I would say that---yes, sir.”

[ so Oswald didn't arrive with Frazier, and he certainly didn't carry any curtain rods like Frazier said - however Dougherty just told us Oswald wasn't carrying anything, which means not even his lunch ... so was this really Oswald or was it an imposter? ]

. . .

Mr. BALL - "Are you sure you were on the fifth floor when you heard the shots?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Yes, I'm positive."

Mr. BALL - "Did you see any other employee on the fifth floor?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "No, sir; I didn't see nobody---there wasn't nobody on the fifth floor at all---it was just myself."

Mr. BALL - "You told me that just before you heard the shots, you had been on the sixth floor?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Yes."

Mr. BALL - "And then you went down to the fifth floor?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "That's right."

Mr. BALL - "Did you see anybody on the sixth floor when you were there, before you went to the fifth floor?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Oh, yes; I did."

Mr. BALL - "Who?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Well, there was Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady---"

Mr. BALL - "That was in the morning, wasn't it?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Yes."

Mr. BALL - "That wasn't after lunch, was it?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "No, sir."

Mr. BALL - "After lunch, did you ever see them on the sixth floor?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "No, sir; I didn't."

Mr. BALL - "Now, did you hear this shot either before or after lunch?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "It was before lunch it was before lunch."

Mr. BALL - "You think it was before lunch you heard the shot?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "I believe it was--yes, sir."

Mr. BALL - "And you were alone, were you?"

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Yes."

Mr. BALL - "That's all I have to ask you ..."

[ a very peculiar statement, since Junior Jarman, Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams were on the 5th at the time of the shooting ]

. . .

In any case, the shooting didn't seem to effect his state of mind any, since he went right back to work.

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Well, then, I went back to work.”

Mr. BALL - "And where did you go to work?”

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Let me see---oh, up to the sixth floor.”

Mr. BALL - "Did you go to the sixth floor?”

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Yes, sir.”

Mr. BALL - "About what time?”

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "At about 12:40---it was about 12:40.”

. . .

Mr. BALL - "And you told him on the 19th day of December, Mr. Johnson, that you went back to work on the sixth floor, and as soon as you arrived on the sixth floor, you went down to the fifth floor to get some stock?”

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Yes, sir; that's right.”

Mr. BALL - "And while you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise?”

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "That's right---it sounded like a car backfiring.”

Mr. BALL - "And did you hear more than one loud explosion or noise?”

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "No; that was the only one I heard.”

Mr. BALL - "You only heard one?”

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Yes.”

Mr. BALL - "And where did it sound like it came from?”

Mr. DOUGHERTY - “It sounded like it came from overhead somewhere.”

Mr. BALL - "From overhead?”

Mr. DOUGHERTY - "Yes.”

[ as close as he was to the sniper's nest, he only heard the backfire and not the three shots that were supposedly fired from there ]

Charles Givens vol. VI, p. 345

[ regarding Oswald's clothes ]

Mr. BELIN - "Do you remember what he was wearing?"

Mr. GIVENS - "Well, I believe it was kind of a greenish looking shirt and pants was about the same color as his shirt, practically the same thing he wore all the time he worked there. He never changed clothes the whole time he worked there, and he would wear a grey looking jacket."

. . .

Mr. BELIN - "When did you see Lee Harvey Oswald next?"

Mr. GIVENS - "Next?"

Mr. BELIN - "Yes."

Mr. GIVENS - "Well, it was about a quarter till 12, we were on our way downstairs, and we passed him, and he was standing at the gate on the fifth floor. I came downstairs, and I discovered I left my cigarettes in my jacket pocket upstairs, and I took the elevator back upstairs to get my jacket with my cigarettes in it. When I got back upstairs, he was on the sixth floor in that vicinity, coming from that way."

Mr. BELIN - "Coming from what way?"

Mr. GIVENS - "Toward the window up front where the shots were fired from."

. . .

Mr. BELIN - "Did you see all of his body or not?"

Mr. GIVENS - "Yes, sir; he had his clipboard in his hand."

Mr. BELIN - "He had his clipboard in his hand?"

Mr. GIVENS - "Yes, sir."

. . .

Mr. BELIN - "All right, he was walking with his clipboard from that southeast corner?"

Mr. GIVENS - "Yes, sir."

Mr. BELIN - "Where did you see him walking? What direction did you see him walking in?"

Mr. GIVENS - "He was coming towards the elevators."

Mr. BELIN - "From the Elm Street side of the building?"

Mr. GIVENS - "Yes, Sir."

. . .

Mr. BELIN - "How many shots did you hear?"

Mr. GIVENS - "Three."

Mr. BELIN - "What did you do when you heard them?"

Mr. GIVENS - "Well, we broke and ran down that way, and by the time we got to the corner down there of Houston and Elm, everybody was running, going toward the underpass over there by the railroad tracks. And we asked-- I asked someone some white fellow there, 'What happened?" And he said, "Somebody shot the President." Like that. So I stood there for a while, and I went over to try to get to the building after they found out the shots came from there, and when I went over to try to get back in the officer at the door wouldn't let me in."

Mr. BELIN - "Did you tell him you worked there?"

Mr. GIVENS - "Yes; but he still wouldn't let me in. He told me he wouldn't let no one in."

[ that's why Givens missed the initial headcount inside the building and why he was briefly considered a suspect ]

Danny Arce vol. VI, p. 363

Mr. BALL - "Did you hear shots?"

Mr. ARCE - "Yeah."

Mr. BALL - "How many?"

Mr. ARCE - "Three."

Mr. BALL - "Where did you make out the direction of the sound?"

Mr. ARCE - "Yeah, I thought they came from the railroad tracks to the west of the Texas School Book Depository."

Sandra Styles, Elsie Dorman and Victoria Adams were watching the motorcade together from a window on the 4th floor, on the Elm Street side and all saw and heard the same thing - Styles and Dorman were not heard by the Warren Commission.

Victoria Adams vol. VI, p. 386

Miss ADAMS - "And from our vantage point we were able to see what the President's wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that would attract men's attention. Then we heard---then we were obstructed from the view."

Mr. BELIN - "By what?"

Miss ADAMS - "A tree. And we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot. It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock."

. . .

Mr. BELIN - "How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?"

Miss ADAMS - "Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately."

Mr. BELIN - "How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?"

Miss ADAMS - "I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult."

Mr. BELIN - "How long do you think it took you, to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?"

Miss ADAMS - "I would say no longer than a minute at the most."

Mr. BELIN - "So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?"

Miss ADAMS - "Yes, approximately."

Mr. BELIN - "As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time?"

Miss ADAMS - "That's correct."

Mr. BELIN - "You heard no one else running down the stairs?"

Miss ADAMS - "Correct."

. . .

Mr. BELIN - "During the trip down the stairs on the way down did you ever encounter Lee Harvey Oswald?"

Miss ADAMS - "No, sir."

. . .

[ and then the bombshell ]

Miss ADAMS - "There was a man that was standing on the corner of Houston and Elm asking questions there. He was dressed in a suit and a hat, and when I encountered Avery Davis going down, we asked who he was, because he was questioning people as if he were a police officer, and we noticed him take a colored boy away on a motorcycle, and this man was asking questions very efficaciously, and we said, "I guess he is maybe a reporter," and later on on television, there was a man that looked very similar to him, and he was identified as Ruby. And on questioning some police officer, they said they had witnesses to the fact that he was in the Dallas Morning News at the time. And I don't know whether that is relevant or what."

[ photographs surfaced of a man very similar in appearance to Jack Ruby just outside the TSBD right after the shooting ]

That night, at the press conference in the police station, Jack Ruby was spotted again and was even one of the men who corrected Dallas D.A. Henry Wade when he mentioned Oswald's connection to the "Free Cuba Movement or whatever ...".

Was Ruby stalking Oswald? Was he looking for oppertunities to kill him as early as possible?

James "Junior" Jarman vol. III, p. 198

Mr. BALL - "Now on November 22, what time did you get to work?"

Mr. JARMAN - "About 5 minutes after 8."

Mr. BALL - "Was Oswald there when you got there?"

Mr. JARMAN - "Yes, sir."

Mr. BALL - "Where did you see him the first time?"

Mr. JARMAN - "Well, he was on the first floor filling orders."

. . .

[ regarding if and when Jarman spoke to Oswald that morning ]

Mr. BALL - "And what was said by him and by you?"

Mr. JARMAN - "Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then back again on Elm. Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all."

[ after standing out front for a little while, he and Harold Norman went around to the North side of the building and took the West elevator to the 5th floor ]

. . .

[ finally a good question ]

Mr. BALL - "Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth?"

Mr. JARMAN - "No."

Mr. BALL - "Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor?"

Mr. JARMAN - "Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank."

. . .

Mr. JARMAN - "After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm, then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was then--I thought it was a backfire."

Mr. BALL - "You thought it was what?"

Mr. JARMAN - "A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President. And then at that time I didn't, you know, think too much about it. And then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then the third shot was fired right behind the second one."

Mr. BALL - "Were you still on your knees looking up?"

Mr. JARMAN - "Well, after the third shot was fired, I think I got up and I run over to Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, and told them, I said, I told them that it wasn't a backfire or anything, that somebody was shooting at the President."

Mr. BALL - "And then did they say anything?"

Mr. JARMAN - "Hank said, Harold Norman, rather, said that he thought the shots had came from above us, and I noticed that Bonnie Ray had a few debris in his head. It was sort of white stuff, or something, and I told him not to brush it out, but he did anyway."

Mr. BALL - "He had some white what, like plaster?"

Mr. JARMAN - "Like some come off a brick or plaster or something."

Mr. BALL - "Did Norman say anything else that you remember?"

Mr. JARMAN - "He said that he was sure that the shot came from inside the building because he had been used to guns and all that, and he said it didn't sound like it was too far off anyway. And so we ran down to the west side of the building."

. . .

[after the shots had been fired, Jarman, Norman and Williams ran over to the West corner window]

Mr. BALL - "And what did you do after you opened the window?"

Mr. JARMAN - "I leaned out and the officers and various people was running across the tracks, toward the tracks over there where they had the passenger trains, and all, boxcars and things."

. . .

[ about Norman hearing shells ejected ]

Mr. JARMAN - "He said it was something sounded like cartridges hitting the floor, and he could hear the action of the rifle, I mean the bolt, as it were pulled back, or something like that."

Mr. BALL - "Had you heard anything like that?"

Mr. JARMAN - "No, sir; I hadn't."

Mr. BALL - "Had you heard any person running upstairs?"

Mr. JARMAN - "No, sir."

Mr. BALL - "Or any steps upstairs?"

Mr. JARMAN - "No, sir."

Mr. BALL - "Any noise at all up there?"

Mr. JARMAN - "None."

. . .

[ Gerald is curious about the shots ]

Representative FORD - "Where did you think the sound of the first shot came from? Do you have a distinct impression of that?"

Mr. JARMAN - "Well, it sounded, I thought at first it had came from below. That is what I thought."

Representative FORD - "As you looked out the window and you were looking at the President's car."

Mr. JARMAN - "Yes, sir."

Representative FORD - "Did you have a distinct impression as to whether the sound came from your left or from your right?"

Mr. JARMAN - "I am sure it came from the left."

Representative FORD - "But your first reaction, that is was from below."

Mr. JARMAN - "Yes, sir."

Representative FORD - "When the second shot came, do you have any different recollection?"

Mr. JARMAN - "Well, they all sounded just about the same."

Representative FORD - "You distinctly recall three shots?"

Mr. JARMAN - "Yes, sir."

[ so what Junior Jarman is saying, is that it sounded to him like the first shot came from below and to his left ... so possibly the second floor of the Dal-Tex building - so like Victoria Adams, Junior Jarman too thought the shots came from a low position ]

. . .

Mr. JARMAN - "We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up."

Representative FORD - "How could you tell this elevator was at six?"

Mr. JARMAN - "Because after we got around to the other side we looked up."

Representative FORD - "You could see it was on six?"

Mr. JARMAN - "Yes."

Representative FORD - "This was about what time?"

Mr. JARMAN - "That was about 12:25 or 12:28."

[ someone took the east elevator up to the 6th just before Jarman and Norman went up to the 5th floor... this might have been Bonnie Ray Williams ]

Harold Norman vol. III, p.186

Mr. BALL - "Did you ever go to the sixth floor that day, that morning?"

Mr. NORMAN - "I can't---yes, I went up that morning during the time I think they were laying the floor up there when I went up there."

. . .

Mr. BALL - "Now, what about Lee Oswald. Do you know what publisher he filled orders for?"

Mr. NORMAN - "I knew Scott-Foresman."

. . .

Mr. BALL - "Do you know where those books were kept?"

Mr. NORMAN - "The majority of them were on the sixth floor."

Mr. BALL - "They were?"

Mr. NORMAN - "Yes."

Mr. BALL - "And did you also keep a stock of Scott-Foresman books on the first floor?"

Mr. NORMAN - "Yes."

. . .

Mr. BALL - "After you washed up, what did you do?"

Mr. NORMAN - "Well, I got my lunch, I ate my lunch in the domino room."

. . .

Mr. BALL - "Why did you go to the fifth floor?"

Mr. NORMAN - "Usually, one reason was you usually fill orders, I fill quite a few orders from the fifth floor and I figured I could get, you know, a better view of the parade or motorcade or whatever it is from the fifth floor because I was more familiar with that floor."

. . .

Mr. NORMAN - "I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, 'I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us.' Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me."

Mr. BALL - "How many shots did you hear?"

Mr. NORMAN - "Three."

[ after this, like with Junior Jarman, it wasn't asked if they thought all three shots came from above them ]

. . .

Mr. BALL - "When you were brought to the first floor or when you came to the first floor how did you go down there?"

Mr. NORMAN - "We came down the stairway. I remember we came down the stairway."

[ we have to assume here that this was after Baker and Truly went up the stairs to the roof ]

. . .

Mr. BALL - "I have here a document 493, which is a copy of a statement made by this witness, which I now mark 493."

( ibid. the document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 493, for identification )

Mr. BALL - "The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December 1963. Do you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special Agent of the Secret Service, on that day?"

Mr. NORMAN - "I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember Mr. Carter."

Mr. BALL - "I want to call your attention to one part of the statement and I will ask you if you told him that:

'Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come

from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle.

I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me.'

Mr. BALL - "Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?"

Mr. NORMAN - "I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was."

[ I love that last remark by Harold Norman! ]

. . .

Mr. BALL - "On the 26th of November, an FBI agent named Kreutzer advises us in a report that he talked to you. Do you remember that?"

Mr. NORMAN - "Yes, sir."

Mr. BALL - "You remember?"

Mr. NORMAN - "Yes; I remember talking to him. I don't know his name."

Mr. BALL - "He reports that you told him that you heard a shot and that you stuck your head from the window and looked upward toward the roof but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from above you. Did you tell him that?"

Mr. NORMAN - "I don't recall telling him that."

Mr. BALL - "Did you ever put your head out the window?"

Mr. NORMAN - "No, sir; I don't remember ever putting my head out the window."

Mr. BALL - "And he reports that you stated that two additional shots were fired after you pulled your head back in from the window. Do you remember telling him that?"

Mr. NORMAN - "No, sir; I don't."

[ that's the second time Harold Norman is confronted with a statement he never made! ]

Bonnie Ray Williams vol. III, p. 161

[ regarding the type of job - the laying of a new plywood floor over the old plywood floor - Williams was doing in the TSBD at the time ]

Mr. BALL - "And when you finished on the fifth floor, what did you do?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "After we finished on the fifth floor, we started to move up to the sixth floor. But at the time we didn't complete the sixth floor. We only completed just a little portion of it."

Mr. BALL - "By the time, you are talking about November 22d?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, sir."

Mr. BALL - "Before November 22d, how long had you been laying floor in the building at Houston and Elm?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Before November 22d, I think we had been working on the fifth floor, I think, about 3 weeks. I think altogether I had been up there just about 4 weeks, I think.”

Mr. BALL - "And how long had you been on the sixth floor before how long have you been working on the sixth floor before November 22?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Let's see. Before November 22d, I think it might have been 2 days--it might have been 2 days. I would say about 2 days, approximately 2 days."

. . .

[ regarding when Williams last saw Oswald on the 22nd of November, then Ball directs him away ... ]

Mr. WILLIAMS - "That is the only time I saw him that morning. I saw him again between 11:30 and maybe 10 until 12:00."

Mr. BALL - "We will come to that in a moment. Where did you work that morning?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "That morning I worked on the sixth floor. I think we went directly up to the sixth floor and I got there."

Mr. BALL - "And how many were working on the sixth floor with you?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "I believe there were five."

Mr. BALL - "What are their names?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Well, Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, and there was a fellow by the name of Danny Arce."

Mr. BALL - "He is a Mexican boy?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes. And a fellow by the name of Billy Lovelady, and myself. And there was a fellow that came up--his name was Harold Norman. He really wasn't working at the time, but there wasn't anything to do, he would come around to help a little bit, and then back down."

. . .

Mr. BALL - "What part of the sixth floor were you working that morning?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "On the west side."

Mr. BALL - "Were you moving stock or laying floor that morning?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "We were doing both."

Mr. BALL - "You were doing both?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, sir."

Mr. BALL - "The west side of the sixth floor--you mean the whole west side, or was there a certain part--northwest or southwest or middle?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "I believe it was the whole west side, because we had to go from window to window--from the elevator to the front window facing Elm Street--we were laying the floor parallel."

Mr. BALL - "Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor that morning?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "I am not sure. I think I saw him once messing around with some cartons or something, back over the east side of the building. But he wasn't in the window that they said he shot the President from. He was more on the east side of the elevator, I think, messing around with cartons, because he always just messed around, kicking cartons around."

. . .

Mr. BALL - "Why did you go to the sixth floor?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor."

Mr. BALL - "Did anybody go back?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Nobody came back up. So I just left."

Mr. BALL - "Where did you eat your lunch?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe."

Mr. BALL - "Facing on what street?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Facing Elm Street."

Mr. MCCLOY - "What floor?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - “Sixth floor."

Mr. DULLES - "You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, sir."

Mr. DULLES - "And you were all alone?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, sir."

Mr. BALL - "What did you sit on while you ate your lunch?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler."

Mr. BALL - "A two-wheeler truck, you mean?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler. By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then."

Mr. DULLES - "How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me."

[ the two wheeler truck they are referring to is more a cart or trolley type vehicle for moving quantities of boxes ]

. . .

Mr. MCCLOY - "What time of day was this, when you were eating your lunch?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "About 12."

Mr. MCCLOY - "Just 12?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, sir."

Mr. BALL - "Now, as you looked towards the southeast corner from where you were sitting, could you see the windows in the southeast corner?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "In the southeast--that is--the southeast. I really don't remember if I seen anything-- it would be just the top edge of the window, as I remember."

Mr. BALL - "Did you see anyone else up there that day?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "No, I did not."

Mr. BALL - "How long did you stay there?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes."

Mr. BALL - "Finish your lunch?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, sir. No longer than it took me to finish the chicken sandwich."

Mr. BALL - "Did you eat the chicken?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, I did."

[ so Bonnie Ray Williams was near the South East corner of the 6th floor eating his lunch from 12:00 pm to approx. 12:12 pm ]

. . .

[ why Williams took the east elevator from the 6th to the 5th floor after finishing his lunch ]

Mr. BALL - "Why did you stop on the fifth floor?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "To see if there was anyone there."

Mr. BALL - "Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down."

Mr. BALL - "Did you find anybody there?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember."

Mr. BALL - "Now, I want to call your attention to another report I have here. On the 23d of November 1963, the report of Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, FBI agents, is that you told them that you went from the sixth floor to the fifth floor using the stairs at the west end of the building. Did you tell them that?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "I didn't tell them I was using the stairs. I came back down to the fifth floor in the same elevator I came up to the sixth floor on."

Mr. BALL - "You did?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, sir."

[ so again a witness is confronted with a wrongful statement drawn up by the FBI - I have to conclude that Junior Jarman might have also spoken to the FBI and not Secret Service like he said]

. . .

Mr. BALL - "Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes."

Mr. BALL - "Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes."

[ and again!! - the FBI was determined to clear a large time frame to stick Oswald into, because without it he had no time to assemble the rifle and take position ]

. . .

Mr. WILLIAMS - "After the Presidents car had passed my window, the last thing I remember seeing him do was, you know--it seemed to me he had a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back. And then the thing that happened then was a loud shot--first I thought they were saluting the President, somebody even maybe a motorcycle backfire. The first shot--there was two shots rather close together. The second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot and the second shot, as I remember."

Mr. BALL - "Now, was your head out the window?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "I could not say for sure. I do not remember."

Mr. BALL - "Did you notice where did you think the shots came from?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Well, the first shot-I really did not pay any attention to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot, it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot. And it sounded-it even shook the building, the side we were on cement fell on my head."

Mr. BALL - "You say cement fell on your head?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Cement, gravel, dirt, or something from the old building, because it shook the windows and everything. Harold was sitting next to me, and he said it came right from over our head. If you want to know my exact words, I could tell you."

. . .

Mr. BALL - "Did you run fast towards the west?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "We did. We moved rather fast. We was at a trotting pace."

Mr. DULLES - "Was that to get a better view of the President's party in the car?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "No, sir; I don't think--we knew the President had been shot at at that time. The car was gone, you know. It has speeded up and left. But the people, as I said before, the policemen and people were running towards the tracks. The tracks are at this side of the building. We wondered why they were running that way.”

Mr. DULLES - "How did you know the President was shot at this time?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "We heard the shots, and we assumed somebody had shot him. And we decided to run down that way."

Representative FORD - "Why didn't you go up to the sixth floor?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "I really don't know. We just never did think about it. And after we had made this last stop, James Jarman said, "Maybe we better get the hell out of here." And so we just ran down to the fourth floor, and came on down. We never did think about it, going up to the sixth floor. Maybe it was just because we were frightened."

Mr. DULLES - “Did you know the President had been hit?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Well, personally I did not know he had been hit, but I think Harold--I remember--I don't know whether he said or not--but I think he said he saw him slump. So from that I think we all assumed he had been shot."

. . .

[ as to why they felt it was so important to look out the West windows ]

Mr. BALL - "Why did you go there and look in that direction?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Because, as I said before, the policeman was running toward the tracks."

Mr. BALL - "The tracks shown in this picture?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, sir. I believe that is the parking lot right here."

Mr. BALL - "And the tracks are shown in there, aren't they?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, sir."

Mr. BALL - "And were people running towards the tracks?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, sir; the policemen were."

. . .

[ Allen Dulles asks a smart question ]

Mr. DULLES - "I would like to ask one question here. When you were on the sixth floor eating your lunch, did you hear anything that made you feel that there was anybody else on the sixth floor with you?”

Mr. WILLIAMS - "No, sir; I didn't hear anything."

Mr. DULLES - "You did not see anything?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "I did not see anything."

Mr. DULLES - "You were all alone as far as you knew at that time on the sixth floor?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, sir."

Mr. DULLES - "During that period of from 12 o'clock about to--10 or 15 minutes after?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, sir. I felt like I was all alone. That is one of the reasons I left--because it was so quiet."

[ keep in mind here that it was at this time that Arnold Rowland saw the man with the 30.06 in the South West corner in the "two-handed or "Ready" carry position" ]

. . .

Mr. MCCLOY - "How many shots did you hear fired?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "I heard three shots. But at first I told the FBI I only heard two--they took me down- -because I was excited, and I couldn't remember too well. But later on, as everything began to die down, I got my memory even a little better than on the 22d, I remembered three shots, because there was a pause between the first two shots. There was two real quick. There was three shots."

Mr. BALL - "Did you hear anything upstairs at all?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "No, sir; I didn't hear anything."

Mr. BALL - "Any footsteps?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "No, sir. Probably the reason we didn't hear anything is because, you know, after the shots we were running, too, and that was making a louder noise."

Mr. BALL - "You really ran?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, sir; we ran. And that was probably making a lot of noise."

. . .

[ regarding the quick stop they made on the 4th floor before heading down to the 1st floor ]

Mr. DULLES - "There were some people on the fourth floor?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, sir. I remember seeing maybe two or three women (*) standing in the window, looking out the window."

Mr. DULLES - "Looking out the window?"

Mr. WILLIAMS - "Yes, sir."

Mr. MCCLOY - "Which stairway did they take, west or east?"

Mr. BALL - "There was only one stairway, and that is the one in the corner."

[ (*) these women were Sandra Styles, Elsie Dorman, and Victoria Adams - it's also funny that Joseph Ball answers John McCloy's question ]

S U M M A R Y

Harold Norman, Junior Jarvis and Bonnie Ray Williams were the closest witnesses to the 'sniper's nest'.

They heard three shots. One shot - interval - then two shots close together.

Minor debris, such as cement or dust, fell into the hair of Willams (and only his).

He was "farthest away from the point on the floor above from which the shots were fired."

[ - West to East it was Jarman, Williams, Norman - ]

No one ever asked if, in this particular building, debris like that has ever fallen on previous occasions from the floor above to any of the lower floors.

All three witnesses claimed to not have heard anyone walking around or moving up on the sixth floor before, during, or after the time of the shooting. Before the shooting started they had no reason to listen for that, during the shooting they were too scared to think of it, and after the shooting they had every reason to listen for someone up there, but they heard nothing.

Not even seeing or hearing anyone going down the stairs or elevators.

According to Williams, Harold Norman heard the shells ejected and "could hear the rifle" .... [ sic. being recycled ]

Williams had testified he saw only the white helmet of a traffic cop. Now what this means is that Williams, Jarman and Norman remained on the fifth floor until after Oswald was seen on the second floor and they did not hear anybody running or walking above them or coming down the old steps or using the creaky elevators.

It also means that Baker and Truly only briefly stopped on the 5th floor before continuing up the stairs.

If these testimonies mean anything, they mean that neither Oswald nor anyone else left the sixth floor until after Williams, Norman and Jarman did. It would certainly seem to confirm Oswald's statement to the police that he was on "the first floor".

And it would clearly mean that whomever fired the rifle remained hidden on the sixth floor.

Perhaps he even fired from the roof and then hid on the sixth before leaving the building.

Jarman testified that he heard the shells hit the floor, but he didn't hear the sound of the rifle bolt.

[ ibid. perhaps someone else dropped the shells there while the actual shots were being fired from the roof ]

Both Junior Jarman and Victoria Adams thought the first shot had come from below and to their left, which could mean the Dal-Tex building.

It's important to understand the differences between the two lunchrooms - the first floor domino room was mainly used by minorities and storage room workers, whereas the second floor lunch room was primarily for whites, and office workers.

The second floor lunch room is the only one of the two rooms where there was a soda pop machine.

It's said that Oswald made it a habit to eat in the domino room because he either felt like he was a minority, or didn't feel like he was different or better than the minorities. Or it was just because it was used by most of the storage room workers.

Bonnie Ray Williams finished his lunch around 12:12 pm - 12:15 pm at the latest - and then took the East elevator down to the 5th floor to see if anyone was there.

Right after the shooting, the three Negro men were afraid to go up to the 6th floor, aware there might be someone up there with a rifle who had just shot at the President, so they stayed on the 5th floor and looked out the window instead, looking towards the triple underpass and the railroad yard - noticing the police and detectives searching the boxcars.

Everything I've read about Bonnie Ray Williams indicates to me that he wasn't particularly close with Harold Norman and Junior Jarvis, but he was as close to Danny Arce as Norman and Jarman were close.

Some of the FBI agents went out of their way to put pressure on some of the witnesses, changing their statements in order to make the witnesses look untrustworthy before the Warren Commission.

Finally, an interesting excerpt from the testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier in "The Trial against Clay L. Shaw" - Feb. 13, 1969

Mr. ALCOCK - "How much time elapsed from the time you heard the second noise until you heard the third noise?"

Mr. FRAZIER - "When I heard the second noise, the third was followed nearly just right back to back. It was fired in rapid succession."

Mr. ALCOCK - "Almost simultaneously?"

Mr. DYMOND - "I object to leading the witness, Your Honor."

Mr. HAGGERTY - "I sustain the objection."

Mr. ALCOCK - "Can you demonstrate by perhaps hitting your hand like this as to the succession of shots, the noises you heard?"

Mr. FRAZIER - "You mean all three shots?"

Mr. ALCOCK - "Right."

Mr. FRAZIER - "Okay." (Demonstrating by clapping his hands.)

Mr. ALCOCK - "Mr. Frazier, did you make any determination at that time from the noises that you have just reported as to what location they came from?"

Mr. FRAZIER - "They appeared to me to come from down towards the triple underpass."

[ Mr. Frazier was standing on the front steps of the TSBD with Otis Willams (no relation to Bonnie Ray) and Billy Lovelady ]